Ngaire Rogers

August 21, 2016
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Categories: Daffodil Types, Judging, Miniatures, Shows

Last year I posted a photo of N Ngaire Rogers. It has ten petals and is consistent in form and show quality. It is from a cyclamineus cross. The first flower of mine opened today with the expected ten petals. A number of you posted photos of similar multipetalled flowers. I call them ‘Windmill’ daffodils.

Here is my dilemma. I expect to have several flowers of this cultivar available for the North Island National. A daffodil flower is generally accepted as having 6 perianth segments although I can’t find any reference to this in the Register so I assume that I can enter this cultivar as Division 12. The question then becomes ‘Should it be penalized for having extra perianth segments?’ We penalise a flower with seven petals afterall.

Dave

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24 Responses to Ngaire Rogers

  1. Lawrence Trevanion, Australia
    Lawrence Trevanion, Australia
    August 21, 2016 at 3:51 pm

    Hi Dave,

    I think it has been incorrectly registered as division 12 because technically it can be registered in division 4. Obviously it is not what we usually think of as a double and it probably won’t please the judges, not just for the lack of doubling but also because of the departure from the 2 x 3 arrangement of petals.

    I can’t find the photo. Can you repost or provide a link?

  2. David Adams, New Zealand
    August 22, 2016 at 3:43 am

    Hi Lawrence,

    I will post a photo tomorrow. You are correct that it can technically be registered in Div 4 but with two sets of five tepals these flowers don’t quite fit the definition of any recognized classification hence I think that Div 12 may still be appropriate. It has cyclamineus breeding.
    I would still like some comment as to how one would judge a flower such as this.

  3. Lawrence Trevanion, Australia
    Lawrence Trevanion, Australia
    August 23, 2016 at 7:35 pm

    Hi again Dave,

    I found photos here:

    http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=13429.60

    I was definite about the classification because Div 12 is defined as “Daffodil cultivars which do not fit the definition of any other division”. Given that Ngaire Rogers fits the definition for Div 4 it can’t be div 12. I see that, in that link, Graham Fleming expressed his surprise that it is registered as Div.12.

    In spite of the 10 petals I think the flower has 6 anthers and the ovary has 3 chambers so it still retains much of the usual daffodil symmetry. It is an interesting form but it has too many angles for my unpractised eye.  For me, I would be inclined to never give it a 1st in a single bloom class but might think a vase of them quite dazzling.

     

  4. David Adams, New Zealand
    August 23, 2016 at 8:55 pm

    Lawrence,
    Thank you for your participation in this discussion. Ngaire Rogers does not fit comfortably with me in Div 4 although I agree with you technically it should be there. I advised Peg to put it into Div 12 as it does not easily fit the definition of any other cultivar. Hence my advocacy for creating a division for ‘Windmill Daffodils.’ There are a number around. How do you judge it? I don’t know. Maybe the usual criteria of form, symmetry and condition would allow it a first prize.

    Dave

  5. David Adams, New Zealand
    August 25, 2016 at 4:19 am

    I have added a photo of Ngaire Rogers. I now have two identical flowers. As the perianth segments are on one plane as in a standard daffodil I can’t see how it could be regarded as a double. A second flower has opened on another bulb. Also with ten segments but with better alignment.

    Dave

    Ngaire Rogers 1

    Ngaire Rogers 1

    Ngaire Rogers 2 Same flower

    Ngaire Rogers 2
    Same flower

    Photos could be used for Daffseek.

  6. Graham Fleming, Australia
    Graham Fleming, Australia
    August 26, 2016 at 5:19 am

    Dave
    I think there is a case for a special category of Division 12 for daffodils with extra perianth segments. We have quite a few of them and we have been working to stabilize the number of perianth segments. Some of them are quite stunning.
    Miniature that has 8 petals consistently edited 1

    Kb intermediate seedling with lots of petal coverage edited 1Kb intermediate seedling with lots of petal coverage edited 1

  7. David Adams, New Zealand
    August 27, 2016 at 4:40 am

    Thanks for your support Graham. I think we have a real innovation here. I know that Larry Force has some similar ones.

    Dave

  8. Lawrence Trevanion, Australia
    Lawrence Trevanion, Australia
    August 27, 2016 at 6:34 am

    Hi Graham, Dave,

    The definition of Div. 4 is quite general. It reads : – One or more f lowers to a stem, with doubling of the perianth segments or the corona or both.

    Schedulers often subdivide Div.4 into single and multi headed sections. There is no reason why they cannot create a special section for: – One or more f lowers to a stem, with doubling of the perianth segments only.

    If you want to change the official classification system you will need to define the characteristic. Given that there really are doubles with only doubled perianth segments this could be tricky. If you can provide a good definition it would make more sense to subdivide Div. 4 into say 4a and 4b.

    If you put this properly defined group in div. 12 then you will probably need to change the wording of division 4 so as to explicitly exclude them from that division.

    Div. 12  will then read something like: Div. 12a – ” …….. ” and Div. 12b  – “Daffodil cultivars which do not fit the definition of any other division or division 12a”.

     

    Eg1 Eg2

     

     

     

  9. David Adams, New Zealand
    August 30, 2016 at 12:52 pm

    I guess we will agree to disagree. There are others definitely in the doubles camp. One has to see these flowers to see that there is no doubling, as such, of the perianth, just some extra petals. Here’s for a new division. Thanks for the input.

    Dave

  10. Lawrence Trevanion, Australia
    Lawrence Trevanion, Australia
    August 31, 2016 at 5:29 pm

    Hi Dave,

    I don’t think we disagree about much. I suggested that defining the characteristic could be tricky but perhaps a botanist could do it easily in a way that is accessible to judges and registrants. I don’t have any specimens available right now and it is not a good use of my time.

    You would probably define the division for all petal numbers other than 6. I think 3 petals could be attractive, 5 can go unnoticed. Certainly for numbers less than 6 one can hardly call it doubling.

    We probably only disagree over 4 vs 12 and we both agree that for petal numbers higher than 6 these are technically div. 4.

    There are a few strains in the classification system. My div 10 hybrids are pushing into divs 1 and 2. Hybrids between jonquils and tazettas could be either 7 or 8 but I think it makes no sense to put them in 12.  We probably should move div 9 to ‘div 4’ and use the criterion of 1/5th.  Perhaps 5 and 6 could be combined into a division for single and multi headed flowers featuring reflex. This might suggest a corresponding division that features deflex (eg. alpestris hybrids). And of course, if you can define the not-6 petal characteristic, a division for those.

    I expect that, no matter the system, people will make it work. I also think we should try to significantly change the system at most once every century or so. I’m not aware that there is a big demand for system wide changes just yet.

  11. David Adams, New Zealand
    September 1, 2016 at 12:27 am

    Might I suggest that a botanical definition is far more precise than a horticultural definition. We do agree actually on the fact that some horticultural classifications need review. For example Little Kiwi has a jonquil type bulb, jonquil leaves and a jonquil fragrance but because the flower is doubled it must be Div 4. To me it is Div 7 Double.
    Oh well it has been nice to have a debate on Daffnet. It is a shame only two took part.

    Dave

  12. Clay Higgins, North Carolina
    Clay Higgins, North Carolina
    September 1, 2016 at 5:32 am

    Hi Lawrence and Dave,

    Though not participating, I have been reading and watching the responses with interest.  It’s an interesting topic as I have had a few “Fan” daffodils in my miniatures.  I’m not sure if I would consider them a separate division.  More of, it has more then six petals, therefore it is not desirable.  I has made an interesting joke entry into daffodil shows. Have you noticed the “Fan” in ‘Tete-e-Tete’ as I see it often?

    Is Ngaire Rogers a registered name of a daffodil?

     

    Clay

  13. Nancy Tackett, California
    Nancy Tackett, California
    September 1, 2016 at 8:34 am

    Hi All,

    Like Clay, I have been watching this topic evolve. The answer to your question Clay is yes, ‘Ngaire Rogers’ is a registered daffodil. Here is link to the RHS entry.

    Nancy

  14. David Adams, New Zealand
    September 1, 2016 at 11:27 am

    Hi Clay and Nancy,

    Welcome in. Ngaire Rogers was raised by and Alpine Garden Society member, named after her and registered by Peg Tocher, also an alpinist. It is delightful to look at and completely consistent in form therefore different to others which sometimes have more or less petals. Remember how the split coronas were hated when first introduced. Maybe we have a similar situation.

    Dave

  15. Clay Higgins, North Carolina
    Clay Higgins, North Carolina
    September 2, 2016 at 5:30 am

    Dave,

    I agree on introduction of new plants.  However, I have been into plant identification the last few years and generally daffodils are identified by 6 petals, like boxwood is identified by opposing leafs on the stem.  We know there are always mutations, but to keep daffodils where they can be readily identified, there has to be some characteristics that is always constant.  Then again, I’m only a master gardener and not a botanist.

    Clay

  16. Kathleen Simpson, West Virginia
    September 3, 2016 at 5:59 pm

    Gets my vote as a delightful and different flower – and regardless of number of petals few people would have trouble recognizing it as a daffodil.  I think it would have a hard time of it in diverse 4 as it just doesn’t look like a double.  Nobody quite knows what a division 12 looks like (it’s the island of misfit toys, after all) so if it was in good condition and reasonably well-shaped, I’d give it a blue.  And try to get a bulb for myself!

  17. Clay Higgins, North Carolina
    Clay Higgins, North Carolina
    September 4, 2016 at 5:49 am

    Kathleen,

    I’m sorry.  I’m more the daffodil police.  If it showed up for my panel and even if it were the only one daffodil in the class, I’d leave it where I found it and go one to the next class that had to be judged.  Daffodils have six petals. Of course I entered a doubled ‘Tete-e-Tete’ with twelve petals in the Richmond Show a few year ago just to get some laughs.  It was ignored by the judges as well.

    Clay

  18. David Adams, New Zealand
    September 4, 2016 at 3:21 pm

    Clay,That is rubbish. You need to see the flower before making judgment. It is delightful. And do doubles only have six petals? I don’t think so.

    Dave

  19. Clay Higgins, North Carolina
    Clay Higgins, North Carolina
    September 5, 2016 at 6:01 am

    Dave,

    Sorry you feel that way.  One has to have standards in which to judge.  Without standards we would have to give dandelions blue ribbons in a daffodil show thinking it was ‘Rip Van Winkle’4Y-Y. 🙂

    Clay

  20. Robin Hill, New Zealand
    September 10, 2016 at 11:28 am

    Hi All,

    After having seen the vase of this flower at the National Show I can only but agree with Dave that it is not a double. The perianth sits in a perfect plane to the corona, there is no doubling so how can it be classed as a double? Despite its unusual appearance it is a lovely flower.

    Robin

  21. Malcolm Wheeler, New Zealand
    Malcolm Wheeler, New Zealand
    September 11, 2016 at 9:12 pm

    Having witnessed this cultivar at the National show I concur with both David and Robin that this is certainly no double, it is very distinctive and different to others, and it would not fit in div 12 either

    It really has to be seen in the flesh to be able to make a judgment.

    Maybe it is time for a division 14 !!!!!!!

     

    Malcolm

  22. Clay Higgins, North Carolina
    Clay Higgins, North Carolina
    May 22, 2017 at 4:59 am

    HI David,

    We’ll take a look at ‘er and see. The judges manual for the ADS says 6 petals make a daffodil. However, I’m not here to rehash yesterday’s breakfast menu. J

    Thanks for the bulb!

    Clay

  23. Annette Parker Kahn, Louisiana
    May 22, 2017 at 1:39 pm

    Some Daylily hybridizers are embracing multi petaled forms. Many
    cultivars with eight total petals and sepals have been registered. The
    goal seems to be even more flower parts. The native roses in the SE US
    have five petals. The list goes on and on. Why not daffodils?
    Annette Kahn in LA

  24. Clay Higgins, North Carolina
    Clay Higgins, North Carolina
    May 23, 2017 at 6:20 am

    To be accepted in our shows with more than 6 petals, there will have to be some major changes to the judges manuals and instructions. With all the “hellabaloo” over the Poets not having a red or orange rim, even when they do have other rims in the wild, I think we need to decide what criteria we are going to use to judge daffodils. All the non-red or orange poets were relegated to Div 3 until a major uprising saved the day. I personally don’t think more than 6 petals satisfies the definition of a daffodil. The botanical world will be tipped on it’s axis.

    As for Division 4 daffodils that someone commented on, regardless of where the doubling occurs, it still has to have six petals on the back. Too often I as a judge have seen where exhibitors have torn off a petal on the back. To me that is the exhibitor’s guilty plea that the Div 4 does not meet standards for an award of a ribbon and I treat it as such.

    Clay