Brian Duncan, Northern Ireland

Kokopelli Discussion

March 29, 2008

Categories: Daffodil Types, Hybridizer, Hybridizing, Miniatures, Standards

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I rest my case, still totally unconvinced by your arguments as you are with mine. Further words  will not convince those who hold firm views on either side of the debate to change their minds.
Ref. your question – the RHS does not have either a Miniature or Intermediate Lists. Under definitions in the Schedule rule 16 :-
  “Intermediate” and “Miniature” – Minimum and Maximum diameters of individual blooms are as follows:
  Intermediate    – Maximum   80mm,  Minimum 51mm
  Miniature – Maximum  50mm
Undersized blooms of “standard daffodils” shown as “Intermediates” will not be judged.
  Some consideration has been given to formulating ‘Lists’ in the past but the above rules have served well to date and I am not aware of any great clamour for lists to be created. The rules allow seedlings to be shown provided they meet the criteria.
  I had hoped that someone from The daffodil Society might have responded. They do have two lists. I think these have been drawn up by their Classification  Committee. The schedule says Intermediate and Miniature blooms exhibited must be selected from the society’s current approved lists.
  The Daffodil Society also has two Evaluation Classes for cultivars with attributes that would qualify them for inclusion in a list of miniatures or Intermediates.
I know a few World Convention visitors hope to exhibit at the RHS Show so the above rules may be helpful. I hope as many as possible will bring flowers to help make it a truly International event. Our Miniature Section could do with a boost.
I know some World convention visitors are considering exhibiting at the show and the above detail may be of help.

Hi Brian,

Yes, we’ll just have to agree to disagree! But in a friendly manner. We each are products of our experiences.

One last comment from my side. I would pity the local judges in California Shows if they had to judge blooms using criteria established for blooms elsewhere and which make no sense to them. For example, judging cultivars whose blooms typically measure under 80mm locally but could not be allowed because they grow 82mm overseas. Most local judges can be quite competent within their milieu, but might be challenged should they ever travel to the East Coast USA or overseas where many blooms typically are larger (very few travel to shows outside of California). Just the reverse of the concerns you express with judges.

Decent training and education of judges should prevent a dwarfed Empress of Ireland from gaining the Intermediate Award! (The Judging Panel that awarded ‘Capisco’ Best Intermediate at the ADS National Show a few years ago had no California members!) We agree that making such an error is quite undesirable.

I have one question: why don’t the Societies in the UK simply make a list of blooms in Divs. 1-4 & 11 that are registered 50mm to 80mm and deem it the Approved List of Intermediates?




At 06:23 PM 3/26/2008, you wrote:

Hello Bob,
  I expect we will never agree on this.
  I appreciate all the points you make at length about differences in growth and size in different regions.
  I cannot grow good tazettas. The difference is that I do not expect allowances to be made for my geographical limitations any more than I would expect allowances to be made for poor cultivation practices.
  I just  fail to see the logic of having Approved Lists for either Miniatures or Intermediates and then making allowances for geographical loation or cultivation practices. This implies that judges are expected to know what size any cultivar will grow in any multitude of regions – I pity poor judges expected to have such knowledge and being  exposed to such potential criticism!!!
  If this is the approach you want then better to just work to the 50mm and 80mm qualifying measurements for Miniatures and Intermediates  – you might then manage to get a poorly grown Empress of Ireland winning in the Intermediate class!! This, for the purposes of illustration, is an extreme example, but in the past standard daffodils have been awarded major prizes as Intermediates when not grown to their normal potential. Personally I do not think that is desirable.
Notwithstanding all this I think your excellent ‘Kokopelli’ can stand  on its merits as a standard and will still often win against bigger flowers.
Now I really must get out of this debate which is essentially an ADS matter, though of wider interest.

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