Staining of Perianths series of seedlings

May 8, 2013
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Categories: Daffodil Types, Hybridizing, Seedling, Standards

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Baron Lake x Three Oaks

Baron Lake x Three Oaks

I am wondering what level of Staining of the perianth has an acceptable level.

The Following posts explire various leves of staining of the perianths in Bicolors  Ths is a Div 2  The orange Rim did not color up as it does in most years

13 responses to “Staining of Perianths series of seedlings”

  1. Stephen Vinisky, Oregon Stephen Vinisky, Oregon says:

    Hi Mike,

    The above would be my personal pick mostly due to the balanced trumpet proportions. All of them a VERY nice indeed. Congratulations!

    Based on the past weather you’ve had, I will expect more great seedling postings into July……….

    Steve

  2. Melissa Reading, California says:

    I personally find it strange that people use the term “staining” which is so far from objective, and implies a flaw. Perhaps it is our pejorative vocabulary that makes it a flaw, and that what we are observing is simply a “halo”, similar to what one finds (in reverse) in a reverse bicolor of YYW-WWY coding.  It is beautiful.  What’s not to like?  Why should we use a term that denigrates it?

    Melissa

  3. Lawrence Trevanion, Australia Lawrence Trevanion, Australia says:

    Hi Michael,

    I think the comparison to reverse bicolors is apt. I would dearly love to breed a crisp Y-W. We accept the halo because we have no choice. But if all reverses were crisp then I think we would look at the halo and say ‘Isn’t that nice!’.

    My understanding is that breeders have put a lot of effort into breeding crisp bicolors, and this I think is right because the effect is quite startling whether it is W-P, W-O, W-Y, or Y-O. My feeling is that when we choose an alternative to this aesthetic we should mean something by it – and this could mean a startling crisp halo or a dreamy wash of color.

    I personally am not attracted to the 05-68-16-1 because the reflexed petals don’t quite counterpoint the expanding trumpet. I’m guessing this is a young flower, but as it is the flush of yellow in the perianth, to my eye, detracts from the color contrast and adds nothing. If the yellow was a sharp halo that could be very interesting.

  4. Mary Lou Gripshover, Ohio Mary Lou Gripshover, Ohio says:

    I agree with Melissa.  Why not “halo” instead of “staining”?

  5. Lesley Ramsay, New Zealand Peter Ramsay says:

    The halo v staining is a discussion which arises from time to time on Daffnet.   Here in New Zealand our Judging manual accepts a halo without any points being deducted.  By definition, though, a halo is round.  As noted it occurs in a lot of reversed bicolours.  However if the colouration at the base of the perianth is not round then strict interpretation of our  Manual indicates that the bloom   should be downpointed.   For most of our judges that would be a small downpointing and would only be taken into account in a close competition.   I have been trying to breed a 1WY and 2WY without staining or a halo for over twenty years and have not met my goal yet!!

    Cheers

    Peter

  6. Nancy Tackett, California Nancy Tackett, California says:

    The first time I heard the term “halo” used was at the 2004 Daffodil Convention in Melbourne. I found this a very honorable description for such a unique feature. Since then, I have used this term to describe the coloration in the lower perianth.

    Like Peter said, we have had a couple of discussions on Daffnet about halos, bleeding, and stains and are still at odds.  Question for Bob Spotts, is this is something you want to include in the “Hybridizing Glossary”  – latest publication dated 2011?

    Nancy

     

     

  7. David Adams, New Zealand says:

    hi Folks,

    I will stand with Peter on this one. We are looking for a clean white perianth and staining is a fault. A clear halo may be more acceptable. If there is staining then the perianth cannot be considered white.

    As to the reverse bicolours we all throw defintions out the window. A band of pink on a 2W-P defines that the cultivar must be exhibited in the pink class yet the band of yellow on Daydream still does not allow the cultivar to be entered in the 2Y-Y class. I believe that this comes from the historical rarity of reverse bicolours. Staining in one is not the same as staining in another. Interesting people aren’t we.

    So lets strive for a clean perianth on our white bicolours. Oops, I forgot that a stain of pink in the perianth is considered a plus for the cultivar.

    Dave

  8. Melissa Reading, California says:

    To Dave Adams’ point, what do we think about pink halos?  are they a flaw?  How else will we move toward pink perianths?  I return to a favorite point of mine, that the aesthetic beauty of the flower is the criterion of interest in judging.  Symmetry is the highest priority for form.  Color shadings can be as beautiful as color banding.  There is nothing intrinsically more beautiful about a striped pattern than one that has a more subtle and nuanced color transition.  This is consistent with my belief that both subtle and vivid colors can be beautiful.  Just because setting a “bright line” makes judging easier does not mean that it makes judging better, in terms of selecting the most beautiful bloom.

     

  9. Greg Freeman, South Carolina Greg Freeman, South Carolina says:

    The subject of “staining” is an interesting one.  I only have two or three 2W-Ys, and there is a yellow “halo” on each.  I never thought much of it until I was told it is undesirable and a characteristic one should aim to breed out.  (Like some of those commenting in previous posts, I’m thinking “What’s the big deal?  You can have a white halo on a reverse.”)  When I discussed this with several judges over the spring AND brought it up in judging school, it was never acknowledged as a big deal.  I was told it’s a matter of preference.  Kinda like a purists vs. non-purists thing.  Because of the early warning I had been given, I have hesitated to buy a cultivar that I really like.  In photographs, it appears quite nice, and nearly every flower is capable of taking “Best Bloom,” according to one catalog.  The price reflects this, too, I might add.

    This all brings up one really good question:  If color is only a small percentage of the points by which we judge daffodils and a cultivar could be outstanding in every other regard, should we make such a fuss over this?  I can see a breeder aiming for crisp colors, but I’m not sure it should be that big of a deal from an evaluation perspective.  Perhaps I have spoken daffodil blasphemy, and I’m sure I’ll hear about it if I have.

  10. Stephen Vinisky, Oregon Stephen Vinisky, Oregon says:

    The older RHS Yearbooks bear out Peter’s, David’s and Lawrence’s point. Close to 100 years ago the “ideal” for bicolors was a trumpet or corona “of the deepest maximus gold” backed by a clean perianth of poeticus whiteness. This was considered to be the peak of perfection because it was (and still is!) so very difficult to achieve from a hybridizing perspective.

    I wish that the late Dave Karnstedt was around to comment as he worked so long and hard on bicolors. Possibly Dr. Reed and Mike Berrigan have a wider perspective than I. Looking at my records, I’ve only raised a few double handfuls of crosses with this goal in mind. Dave K. certainly made many hundreds of crosses using the world’s best flowers in this difficult color code.

    Mike B.- What kind of rough percentage of Dave K’s seedlings had the crisp, clean line of demarkation? My experience has been the same as Dr. Peter Ramsay’s. Nothing worth reporting in terms of any real advance, at least in my estimation. It seems to me that a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of seedlings might even approach that worthy goal.

    My opinion is that this is NOT a purists view. It is a hybridizing goal that is quite difficult to achieve. Most daffodil Judges are not hybridizers. I’d venture to say that staining, bleeding, or a halo are far, far easier attributes to achieve than a crisp, clean, unsullied line of demarkation. It isn’t blasphemy, it is reality. Is there “room” to enjoy all ranges of expression possible? You bet! Absolutely.

    We accept less than perfect results or ideals in many color codes. Another example are the pink Div. 2’s. It is incredibly difficult to get a pure poeticus white perianth on pinks.  That doesn’t mean that all pinks are terrible. Is “staining” a pejorative term? Probably so but it does remind all of us of our past daffodil history and help us remember just how thoughtful were those that came before.

  11. Donna Dietsch, Ohio says:

    On the way to perfection in color in daffodils, we have to accept  some that are not as far along as we would like.  Those few of us who are hybridizers, know how difficult some goals are and how nearly impossible others seem to be.  For around a hundred years. past hybridizers have struggled to keep the cup color from bleeding into the bottom of the perianth.  Sometimes they have developed a few that are near perfect in form but have the bleeding evident.  Should we throw them out?  Of course not.  We still try to get that form in one that has less bleeding.  We do another series of crosses.  Steve has done many crosses over the years trying to get overlapping petals in miniature div !’s.  He is pretty close, but not as close as he would like.

    I would tolerate bleeding of the cup color into the perianth if the color is pink, as that may very well be  the way to all pink perianths.  Bleeding of yellow is not the same since we already have yellow perianths .

    In judging, we should not decide that since color is only 5 points out of 100, we should ignore bad color.  It is just one characteristic to consider.  We should be looking for the beauty of the flower and uneven streaks of color are not the epitome of beauty.

    Donna

     

  12. Michael Berrigan, Minnesota says:

    Responding to Steve’s comment, David Karnstedt’s seedlings selections do not have any staining or halos.  He has three that are quite good.  I will attempt to get photos when they finally bloom.  Buds just now showing.

      The Weipa retained its bleed into the perianth segements. As it stands about halfway and remains irregular and not sharp or crisp.  Recently opening, The Smooth Trumpet seedlings have no roll and have no halo.  I have found that three Oaks gives a blended halo.  Other pollen parents have much crisper bleed.  

    On the 2O-O or 1O-O  front, the most interesting remaind Copper Country X Hawley Gift..  I wandered out to look at the Tangerine Delight siblings discarded by John last year that I retain for our govenor’s masion display.  One of these has an orange halo non crisp about 1/3 of the way throught the perianth.

  13. Spud Brogden, New Zealand says:

    Halo, Staining, Bleeding, Flushing, what ever it is called we must decide whether we are talking about blooms for exhibition or  for home garden display.                                       There is no doubt in my opinion that exhibition blooms must be of distinct colouring without any colour flushing (bleeding) in the perianth. While a pure white perianth may be preferred, I do approve of a clearly defined band (halo), of any colour, as being acceptable. Width of the band is immaterial but it does not want to be predominant – I doubt such a band will ever be more than one quarter the length of the perianth so that is not a concern with me.

    Other colouring which fades from deep to nothing (staining) often enhances the beauty of a bloom for decorative or home garden purposes. The trouble is, if they were accepted for exhibition, how would we clearly define how much staining is enough – one third or half, the length of the perianth ?.                                                                                                Halo for exhibition, Staining or bleeding for the rest.

    All this applies to yellow perianths as well as white perianths.