4 comments for “Division 9”

  1. Nial,

    In my opinion it would be much simpler and save a lot of convoluted arguments, if we simply subsumed division 9 into division 3, because, except for show purposes, I know of no other good reason for dividing daffodil cultivars into un-natural divisions based on corona and perianth lengths. Moreover, division 3 contains a number of cultivars which, under current definition, could be regarded as division 9 anyway and risk being marked “NAS” at RHS shows, if judged properly.

    John Pearson

  2. John Pearson, et. al.,

    As a member of this consultation who has grown large numbers of poeticus
    seedlings, many with poet species as part of the cross, I would propose a
    clear separation of Divisions 3 and 9 based on ploidy. Almost all fertile
    poeticus are diploid, and produce diploid children. Very few things called
    “poet” are tetraploid.

    Some of the other characteristics we call “poet” are subject to natural
    genetic variation. Crosses coming from species in particular produce
    remarkable variation in corona shapes and colors: Among sister seedlings,
    variation can be from a corona almost fully orange (GOO) to almost fully
    yellow (GYY) with gradations in between. If the rim color disappears, is
    that sister any less a poet than the sister with the rim still visible? If
    pink in other divisions almost certainly comes from poet genes, should a
    faint pink rim on a poet disqualify it as a poet? LIkewise, if a poet with
    Dactyl in its pedigree shows occasional doubling (such as Mitch semi-double
    Adoration 4w-w), is it not still essentially a poet?

    Even unquestioned poet characteristics such as pure white perianth color
    (“poeticus white”) may not reflect the genetic diversity in the species. I
    have poet seedlings with Sir Frank Harrison’s Red Hugh as seed parent that
    have pale orange perianth color. Naomi Liggett has a clump of one of these
    seedlings, and Larry Force has others. The seedling I kept as a select is
    fertile and shows every other poet characteristic, including fragrance.
    Harold Koopowicz in another communication mentioned a picture of a similar
    seedling from an RHS publication dating to the 1910’s. Where does orange
    perianth color come from? Might it be hidden in poet genes?

    Ploidy can be tested. More and more, we are able to look beyond
    phenotypical expression. Shouldn’t we maintain this natural group?

    _____

  3. Dan and all,
    What we need to remember is that we’re talking about the Horticultural Classification, NOT the Botanical Classification. The only place we use this classification is in shows–so we can judge like against like. And so we go by the look of the flower.

    It’s why we have tazettas (‘Cheerfulness’, etc.) and poeticus (‘Daphne’, etc.) in Division 4. And why there are flowers in Division 6 with no known record of any cyclamineus ancestry (‘Lilac Charm’ and ‘Mary Lou’); and in Division 7 with no known jonquil ancestry (‘Irish Trip’). Conversely, there are instances where N. jonquilla is the pollen parent of flowers that are subsequently registered in Divisions 2 or 3 (‘Princette’, ‘Starbrook’, ‘Anvil Chorus’, etc.). The flowers are placed in these divisions because they look like the flowers in those divisions, and when someone says Division 1 (for example), we can visualize what the flower looks like.

    So for our purposes, the ploidy doesn’t matter. We’re being asked to say what we think flowers in Division 9 should look like, and we’re given two options. If you think a Division 9 flower should have white petals and some red/orange in the cup, then you probably want to vote for Option 1. If you think an all white flower or one with white petals and a yellow cup works for you, then you should probably vote for Option 2. In both options, the characteristics of the N. poeticus group are to be “clearly evident.”

    I do wonder, though, about some flowers registered in Division 3 that from their DaffSeek photos appear to have very small cups–‘Amy Linea’, ‘Arctic Gem’, ‘Cushendall’, ‘Alberni Beauty’, ‘Angelic Choir’, etc. If Option 2 is adopted, will these flowers be measured and reclassified to Div. 9, if necessary?

    Last time this issue was voted on, Societies voted, and the results were deemed inconclusive. So, whatever your opinion, please vote. Voicing your opinion on Daffnet, while fine, is not voting. To vote, send an email to
    title=
    In the Subject Line, put Division 9
    Then in the message area simply say “I vote for Option ____”

    Let’s not be inconclusive this time.

    Mary Lou

  4. Dear Mary Lou,

    Ploidy matters because it is the very thing that makes Division 9 small and
    graceful–and effectively prevents admixture of characteristics from other
    divisions. The difference between a flower like Gowo or Estrella and any
    number of poets is ploidy. Once classified as a poet–as Division 9–the
    flower will be judged against other poets. If you check presently
    registered poets you can verify that almost no flower registered as a poet
    is tetraploid (maybe 10 in all?).

    What I’m looking for–and I think what Brian Duncan and others who support
    Option 2 are looking for–is the freedom to uncover–and potentially
    register–whatever variation is genetically found in the hybrids and species
    we call poet. For me this means potentially naming a 9O-R poet, if it is a
    poet in every other way and the orange (pink?) flush in the perianth is
    naturally in the poet genes. If I have a large series of select poets bred
    only from poets and poet species, some of which have more of an orange rim,
    and some of which have less or none, in a clear gradation reflecting the
    genetic variation in the cross, I want to be able to call the no-rim sister
    seedling a poet along with its rimmed sisters.

    And yes, I think flowers like Happy Ending 4w-w are actually double poets
    (the doubles all seem to have Dactyl in their pedigree somewhere), and
    should probably be judged as double poets as a section of Division 9. I
    agree that flowers like Angelic Choir (which breeds well with double poet
    Sweet Music and throws 9W-GYR seedlings) are misplaced as intermediate
    Division 3s.

    _____

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