Now that show season is winding down I have a question for all you stalwarts of the Daffodil World.
When you buy a 2 or 3 W-R from a catalogue what do you expect to flower?
We have intense orange-reds and intense pink-reds. Currently both are designated ‘R’. In warmer and drier climates the Rs from the former usually come out O and the ‘Rs from the latter tend to be P.
Currently, people are striving to make good Div. 1W-Rs. For the most part they are using orange genes but I bet that John Reed is probably using pink genes as well.
Shouldn’t we have some way of distinguishing between these two “Reds” in the color code?
I also notice that there is little consistency among the hybridizers when they register their new seedlings as to how the designate red in their color codes.
Harold
Hi Harold,
It appears to me that there is a basic difference in what a “W-R” means in Britain vs. what it means in the U.S. In Britain, “W-R” means white and orange. “W-P” can mean either white and pink or white and red. In the U.S., there seems to be a greater effort for the “R” to actually mean red, and not orange. Not to offend, but this is how I see it.
Having spoken with one of the hybridizers who has chased the elusive “true red”, he thinks that the true reds will come from the pink lines of breeding, and not from the oranges.
Certainly a standardization of what a color means would be nice, but we appear to have a discrepancy already!
Dave Liedlich
Connecticut
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Hi Folks All ‘”reds” are ultimately derived from N poeticus. Maybe there is only a single gene for red .It will turn out orange in a yellow background and pink in a white background. If a bicolor (white with yellow trumpet) like N ssp nobilis is involved you might get a white with an orange trumpet. Still it is all the same gene .The improvement in colour comes from many other genes with small effects that are called enhancers. Ben
Ben J.M.Zonneveld Nationaal Herbarium Nederland POBox 9514 2300 RA Leiden, The Netherlands telf 071 5274738 E-mail:
It seem that here in America that we spell Red – O R A N G E.
Clay Higgins
I see two types of reds. Unfortunately the color charts do not help other than the position of the cards in the fan. As in color paint matching books there is hue and saturation. The color refers to the hue and generally not the saturation. We are perceiving the saturation and that is not the basis for defining if the color is red or orange. Pink reds coming from pink breeding are a result of saturation. Red/oranges also come from intensity but as defined by the fan choice, the color is the hue.
I have bred both and have found that with shading a more deeply colored ‘red’ can be had with the orange/red flowers so far. Magician has both types of pigment. Catalyst seems to have less of the orange/red in it. Teina and Nowra if shaded are intense deep orange red. Brian Duncan has several with deeply colored coronas. In all cases if the sunlight is allowed to do its work, pale orange will result. The sunfastness of the pink-reds seems to be somewhat better. Temperature and other environmental conditions contribute to the flowers developing color. These tend to have shortish cups and have not progressed towards trumpet proportions yet.
On the topic of the W-R breeding we have two generations of breeding for W-R from pinks. I can comment on what has been seen of Larry Wier’s and John Reed’s seedlings. Both have attempted to get both the trumpet proportions and deeper color in to this color code. There has been ample material for breeding W-P /R with the pink trumpets and Magician. Magician / Larna resulted in Coral Jungle a deep pink. Magician X Melancholy is Flashpoint with more of the red/orange color present. Magician X Pink Silk is Flaming Silk this cultivar is a well formed true red/pink trumpet. Pink Silk X Magician resulted in a division 2 W-R which for me is the deepest color of this color class. I am not ignoring Catalyst and Magician that if used a pollen parents give doses of color to a cross. John Reed has explained for him Magician is a shy seeder and many hundreds of blooms were pollinated to get the seedlings he has selected. John and Larry do not supply much watering to the flowers and if irrigated Magician could provide more seed. It readily sets seed for me in my water rich back yard, but I have not produced the numbers of seeds that John has to get his selections. My son and I spent three days hand digging the 1200 or so clumps of decoy X culmination seedlings that were first sold by the Minnesota Daffodil Society bulb sale in the early 2000’s. That was just over one row of seedlings in one cross. Generally using Magician as a pollen parent has resulted in deeply colored division 2 seedlings. Intercrossing these might result in well formed deeply colored flowers.
There is not the equivalent flowers in the 2 W-R from orange/red. These generally are small cups or shortish division 2’s. The color intensity here is for a deep tangerine in the best of conditions. A discussion on breeding 1 W-O was held at the latest convention. Few flowers are available and deep color tending toward red is not to be had. A color break is needed
An interesting note this year was there were a few flowers noted that had intensity of coronas increase with exposure. These included flowers with John Reed’s Turk in their background and Brian Duncan’s D1629. Both had flowers that opened carrot orange and deepened with continued exposure. The cross with the most interest was D1629 X Conestoga. If prodded, I can take a photo of the sad lot that have been out for 3 weeks now and are just folding.
With poet seedlings, crap apples and lilac bloom’s fragrance in the air
Michael R Berrigan
This is an interesting subject, as I am only now beginning to work with Narcissus. The pigment for ‘red’, has this been isolated? I have thought it is most likely cyanidin over a light carotene base, but other anthocyanins may be present. I have no idea.
As there is not true red pigment found in nature, the optical red is always a pigment mix. Orange reds would need a stronger carotene than the pink-reds, which may have almost no carotene present. In the pinks, I have not yet seen one where I feel there is an absolute absence of carotene. The best are still a bit muddy to my eyes. In other monocots, such as Hemerocallis, there are optically two different ‘reds’, plus a third pink created via a carotene, lycopene. In the first two cases, it is clear that the base colour plays a key role, but there are reds that do not seem to follow a simple set of inheritances. We may have a flavonoid pigment augmenting the red pigment in some cases. I suspect this could happen in Narcissus, as well. The flavanoid intensifies the anthocyanin to an almost true red, when on a white (carotene free) ground. upon close examination of the colour, one realises that it is actually a very deep and intense pink, which we optically accept as a cold red. If the ground has small amounts of carotene (zeaxanthin or violaxanthin), then we see a tomato red, which can become very orange. Zeaxanthin alone can create a very convincing orange.
Has any evidence of lycopene been found in Narcissus?
As I have not found any literature on pigments and their inheritance in Narcissus, I am just throwing these thoughts out there.
Jamie Vande
Cologne
Jamie:
Quite a lot is known about narcissus pigments. The coronal colors are ALL based on carotenoids. The pinks/reds are thought to be lycopenes.
I believe the only anthocyanin is the white pigment in the tepals. There are no colored anthocyanins (flavonoids) known in narcissus. The sometimes lilac/blue in the throat of pink cups is thought to be due to the wax layer on the outside of the epidermis but I know of no studies on this.
best
Harold